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Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:24 pm
by Andyst
I have had a couple of concerns raised recently re-the green deal and the fact that the big boys may not be very good for local authoritys and stop us getting involved. the question was asked "Do we (CAN) have a standpoint on this to which my answer at the moment is no.

Perhaps we should in which case it would be good if people could feed back on here and we develop somethings

Cheers

Andy

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:31 pm
by David
The main concerns as with all initiatives is that this is all done piecemeal and hence logistically flawed. Warmzone style approaches work because you intensify activity and focusing your actions in areas, the impact is such that people in the neighbourhood become aware and share information in the pub, at the school gate or in the queue at the newsagent.

It would therefore be useful to have mechanisms that allow area based activity, then maybe the investments could be linked. As solid wall could be pivotal to this scheme, harmonised external cladding systems, with associated planning and building reg solutions are best suited at an area level than individual. Ideally something like that could also promote district heating and similar communal systems (ie replacing heating systems in blocks of flats). Let's hope whatever emerges is not made available in a way that those with sharp elbows benefit from it at the expense of those that need it (like FiTs).

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:45 pm
by JohnMathers
The Green Deal is probably one of the worst ideas I have heard of for quite some time.

What measure does DECC think that people will rush out and install once the barrier of paying for it upfront is removed and the opportunity to indebt yourself for 25 years is available?

There aren't any measures that will be suitable; payback on solid wall is 20 years, and installed cost is about 10K. If there is anyone out there who would like to lend me £10,000 which I can repay at a rate of £400 per annum please get in touch.

Landlords might find this an ideal opportunity to upgrade their properties and have the tenants pay the cost.

A property with a Green Deal repayment attached to it will be less attractive to prospective purchasers/tenants than one without.

Properties are sold on average once every seven years (might not be absolutely correct, but definitely something like 7 years) - will the Green Deal repayments be recalculated for each new owner or occupier as a single person who works all day uses much less energy than a family with young children?

What Government intends is not usually what the private sector delivers.....

26% of CERT target met by posting 276 million light bulbs.
CESP became a Decent Homes scheme bolt on - only 27 schemes approved by OFGEM as at April 2011 (scheme ends Dec 2012)
Feed in Tariffs hijacked by private sector investors setting up large scale schemes on a large scale completely unforeseen by DECC
FITs massively unfair anyway as enables poor people to pay rich people to install solar panels and get paid for the energy they generate

No opportunities for Local Authorities anyway as cannot compete with cash rich utility companies (BG profits £700 million last year)


John.

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:44 am
by Matt Lucas
JohnMathers wrote:The Green Deal is probably one of the worst ideas I have heard of for quite some time.

What measure does DECC think that people will rush out and install once the barrier of paying for it upfront is removed and the opportunity to indebt yourself for 25 years is available?

There aren't any measures that will be suitable; payback on solid wall is 20 years, and installed cost is about 10K. If there is anyone out there who would like to lend me £10,000 which I can repay at a rate of £400 per annum please get in touch.

Landlords might find this an ideal opportunity to upgrade their properties and have the tenants pay the cost.

A property with a Green Deal repayment attached to it will be less attractive to prospective purchasers/tenants than one without.

Properties are sold on average once every seven years (might not be absolutely correct, but definitely something like 7 years) - will the Green Deal repayments be recalculated for each new owner or occupier as a single person who works all day uses much less energy than a family with young children?

What Government intends is not usually what the private sector delivers.....

26% of CERT target met by posting 276 million light bulbs.
CESP became a Decent Homes scheme bolt on - only 27 schemes approved by OFGEM as at April 2011 (scheme ends Dec 2012)
Feed in Tariffs hijacked by private sector investors setting up large scale schemes on a large scale completely unforeseen by DECC
FITs massively unfair anyway as enables poor people to pay rich people to install solar panels and get paid for the energy they generate

No opportunities for Local Authorities anyway as cannot compete with cash rich utility companies (BG profits £700 million last year)


John.
Don't hold back John :)
However those are some interesting and valid points you make.
What's the future because as far as I see it there isn't a Plan B if Green Deal fails to deliver?

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:28 pm
by ClareRedfern
I also have lots of concerns:- (prepare yourselves)

Who is going to regulate the "Assessors" - you only have to look at EPC assessors, loads paid out for training then Estate Agents monopolised that, some assessors take an hour and do a "proper" assessment, others I hear take 10 minutes (seriously).

Also, can 1 person be trained in the raft of technologies....external wall insualtion for instance, would they check if its in a conservation area before they suggested this option? and is between now and next Xmas enough time to train up / set up this huge industry thats sprouting from nowhere?

Can people use a GD whilst also using a service like the Carbon Co-op who intend to set up a bulk purchase scheme so that people can access PV for a more affordable £6k?

and, if they are offering financial advice (in effect they are suggesting you take a loan whether its tied to you or your house) so will the assessors need FSA regualtion?

How do we stop back-handers from installers to assessors? and rogue traders? we have enough problems now with Insulation installers claiming they work with LA's, get funding from places that don't even offer funding, claiming grants for people who shouldn't qualify - on and on and on.....(not all installers I hasten to add).

Then we get on to the pay back, if your property can use a technology like technitherm would it not get a green deal because they aren't 'registered'? who decided what should / shouldn't be included? can I get a new conservatory under dounble glazing - mmm :D

The other post mentions selling houses, from memory its an average of 5-7 years, I know I'll be selling up soon I've been here 5.5 years, so if I get a green deal, and my estate agent isn't really on board, doesn't understand the concept and therefore fails to market it as a postive then I'm likely to loose sales - not to mention the solicitors bit, god they can't manage group repair schemes where there is a note added to the property that its had work but no repayment is required back, they still don't get it so do we expect them to get this!

I sound negaitve.....I'm not, the PAYS concept is a good idea, it offers the opportunity to do your bit, save a bit - but PLEASE POLICY MAKERS YOU NEED TO SPEAK TO US PEOPLE THAT DO DELIVERY BEFORE AGREEING TO ANYTHING.....we speak to the public daily (the LA's and EST especially) we know what people really think, use our knowledge to guide you to make the right choice!

rant complete. :D :D :D

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:22 am
by murrelr
Hi All

Long time no post however I thought it was time to get more discussion going on this. We now have confirmation that GD interest rates are likely to be circa 7.5% (see below - thanks Rob) - will anyone take it up??

Green Deal loans to be offered at 7.5%

Energy secretary, Ed Davey, has indicated that the Government is assuming that the loans to home owners under the Green Deal will be charged at an interest rate of 7.5 per cent.

With a current Bank of England lending rate of half of one percent, this rate has been criticised by many in the industry.
A householder borrowing the maximum £10,000 over 25 years would have to pay back more than £22,000.

As a Green Deal loan will be linked to the property not the occupants, this rate will be accessible to people with poor credit ratings, and for many will be a better rate than those available to them elsewhere. However, for loans of around £10,000 there are rates of around 6 per cent readily available for those with good credit ratings and for many it will be far cheaper to add a loan to their existing mortgages.

In response, Which? Executive Director Richard Lloyd said: “Our recent consumer research, and, in our view, the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s own consumer research, suggest that it will be a challenge to make the Green Deal a compelling proposition for consumers. An interest rate of 7.5% could prove to be an major additional barrier to uptake of the scheme.“

Climate and Energy Minister Greg Barker has said he also hoped the promise of £300m funding from the government-established Green Investment Bank, to help finance the scheme by lending money to companies which will make the contracts with consumers, could introduce lower interest rates than 7.5 per cent.

Customers could also find a higher interest rate was offset by lower installation costs, said Barker. “The interest rate is just one element of what represents a good value-for-money package of measures for the consumer,“ he said.

To read more visit:
http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/07/gre ... -5-290113/
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/21 ... insulation

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:53 am
by Peter.Chisnall
Interesting to note that whilst interest rates are to be fixed for the term of the loan there is scope for them to vary up to 2%, apparently to cater for energy price rises and how it may affect the Golden Rule.

The example given in Table 3 on page 60 of the consultation response of 11th June illustartes this. The first few years repayments can be lowered to make them fit the Golden Rule and over subsequent years they rise resulting in the customer paying more back over the term of the loan.

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:41 pm
by PeterSimpson
It is a pity that the government can only work in an idealistic world where everyone wears the same rose tinted glasses as them.
I've just paid out for an EPC (I haven't, but bear with me). Will I have to get another one done before I can get a Green Deal? I want to improve the thermal efficiency of my solid walls (I don't, but again bear with me) by applying external wall insulation. I pay my £150 for my planning application but my local Planning Authority will not allow single properties to be so treated as it "upsets the visual ammenity of the street." Highways object to the encroachment of the insulation over the footpath. I would like to put gas central heating into the house but Green Deal do not make allowance for full gas central heating projects. I can have a replacement boiler but I don't have one to replace. Okay, I'll have an air source heat pump instead with under floor heating. "Oh no I won't." I live in an area that does not allow me to use the Green Deal for this measure. And anyway, the local Noise Team say that it will make too much noise because the nextdoor neighbours back bedroom window is too close to where I want to site it, under Permitted Development rules. (It has to be there because my side access is too small to accommodate it.)
But looking on the bright side, I won't be paying an interest rate for a 20 year loan that is 5.5% more than my mortgage that finishes when I retire in three years time.
Where can I get those rose tinted glasses that make everything look warmer and brighter? :?

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:32 pm
by JohnMathers
Nobody is going to take up this offer.

From what I hear there was a couple in the Midlands who were interested in getting their solid walls redone, the insulation installed under CESP having fallen off, but since they heard the interest rate was 7.5% they've changed their minds.

Kind Regards,

John.

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:52 am
by ALEO Admin
Hi all

Thanks to Milo Cereghino of Leicester City Council for emailing through the comments below for inclusion on this thread:

Hello there,

Better than Wonga .com I guess (APR 4214% and it’s not a joke!)……. But after a simple search ( 10 seconds….)I found that Sainsbury offers loans at 5.9%.....

Landlords will not care too much, and those that will be able to get help through ECO will still be better off…..

Overall, in my opinion, it looks rather expensive, especially if a client simply needs to replace the boiler and top up loft insulation.

Thanks,

Milo

Re: Green Deal Concerns

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:00 am
by David
That is the issue the 7.5% GD loans will be issued to those who cannot access cheap high street credit for themselves (those closest to Fuel poverty).